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Thread: The higgest ST- quality

  1. #1
    grosenth Guest

    The highest ST- Quality

    My question is:

    Which is the biggest ST quality (KN/m) ever built in the world.? It is my knowdledge that it is Pelambres Conveyin System located in Chile with an ST 7,800. Probably the next is located in Prosper haniel in a coal undergroun mine in germany.

    For our Chuquicamata Underground Project just under conceptual study we got a figure close to ST 10.000. ¿do we expext in the next 3 years that someone can built that (1.8 m width with a length of 3,615 m conveyor length, 6.510 mtph, 4.1 m/s) without great risk being incurred.
    I learn that there are some belting manufacturers making built test belts and test splices in the rangr of ST 10,000.? Is that correct ?? and whom???.

  2. dear Mr. Rosenthal:

    A few years ago, Clouth developed and successsfully tested a belt with an ST8200 rating for the Henderson 2000 project in Colorafo. Before producing the belt, however, they determined that a lighter construction woulod suffice and used that rating instead.

    You can get information on that direct from Clouth (or ContiTech).

    Most of the large belt manufacturers are willing to develop higher strength belts, if there is a need. If you require current status reports on what is posssible, contact companies such as Continental/Clouth (Germany) and Goodyear (USA).

    Hope this helps.
    Dave Miller
    ADM Consulting
    10668 Newbury Ave., N.W.,
    Uniontown, Ohio 44685 USA
    Tel: 001 330 265 5881
    FAX: 001 330 494 1704
    E-mail: admconsulting@cs.com

  3. As a follow-up, I've been advised by Goodyear that they supplied an ST8000 steel cord belt for a project in Canada last year.
    Dave Miller
    ADM Consulting
    10668 Newbury Ave., N.W.,
    Uniontown, Ohio 44685 USA
    Tel: 001 330 265 5881
    FAX: 001 330 494 1704
    E-mail: admconsulting@cs.com

  4. #4
    Lawrence K. Nordell

    Lawrence K. Nordell

    President and CEO

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc. [eDir]

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc.

    Professional Experience 57 Years / 11 Month Lawrence K. Nordell has 57 Years and 11 Month professional experience

    Discussions 2608 Lawrence K. Nordell acceded to 2608 discussions, Articles 0 Lawrence K. Nordell wrote 0 articles, Publications 0 Lawrence K. Nordell Nordell released 0 publications

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    ST-10000 N/mm Belt Design

    Dear Sr. Rosenthal,

    Your interest in building a ST-10000 N/mm belt will surely capture the imagination of belt conveyor engineers and its creation will push the technical envelope to a new level.

    You are correct in crediting Los Pelambres as the world's strongest rated belt @ ST-7800 N/mm. We collaborated with Krupp Canada is the system design including belt strength and splice analysis. However, this belt is not the strongest in terms of tensile carrying capacity. I will try to explain by examples. First, the splice carrying capacity is defined by its endurance or fatigue life. The fatigue life, in factory testing, ranges from DIN 22110 @ 10,000 load cycles to our criteria of 15,000 load cycles. A belt loop is cyclically stressed on a rotating 2 pulley machine from about 6% belt breaking strength (ST) to 50-60% ( common for higher rated belts) for the nominated cycles or until it fails (refer DIN 22110 for a diagram and explanation or visit our web site: www.conveyor-dynamics.com then about/innovations in/splice analysis). If it achieves the set load cycles say at 50% of the ST then the belt true tensile and splice endurance or fatigue rating is said to be 50%. Multiplying the ST by splice endurance efficiency yields the tensile capacity. The following examples show why.
    Project ST (N/mm) Efficiency Splice ST(N/mm)
    1. Prosper Haniel 1986 (a) 7500 0.367 2750
    2. Palabora 1988 (b) 6600 0.510 3300
    3. El Abra 1996 (a) 6800 0.500 3400
    4. Los Pelambres 2000 (a) 7800 0.500 3900
    5. Muskege River 2002 (c) 7000 0.560 3920
    6. Recent testing 2002 (c) 8000 0.510 4080
    legend: (a) Phoenix, (b) ContiTech, (c) Goodyear

    Ultimately the splice capacity governs the ST rating once the peak steady-state belt tension is determined. I have published may papers on the subject which are listed on our web site.

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc. built the world's strongest splice testing machine that has the capacity to do ST-10000 N/mm. It has twice the strength of Hanover Univ. and is equipped with advance instrumentation to probe the nature of rubber and cord failures. Goodyear now owns and operates the machine. We have tested belts to ST-8900 N/mm on this machine.

    Yes, I believe the belt can be built and tested. Mr. Miller is incorrect in stating Goodyear have a belt in service at ST-8000. This is the Canadian Muskege River system with a belt rating of ST-7000 N/mm.

    I state again, the splice strength is more important than the ST rating. You must establish the splice endurance efficiency. If your are using the conventional belt safety factor SF=6.7:1 , then the St-10000 N/mm has a splice strength of 3600 N/mm. From the above examples, a ST-7000 n/mm with an efficiency rating = 0.510 yields the same splice strength as the St-10000 N/mm.

    We would appreciate the opportunity to assist Chuquicamata in defining the true belt strength requirements and testing procedures. I am happy to send you our relevant publications on the above topics.

    With Best Regards,
    Lawrence K. Nordell
    President
    Conveyor Dynamics, Inc.
    1111 West Holly St.
    Bellingham, Washington, USA 98226
    ph: 360-671-2200
    fx: 360-671-8450
    email: nordell@conveyor-dynamics.com
    website: www.conveyor-dynamics.com

  5. #5
    Lawrence K. Nordell

    Lawrence K. Nordell

    President and CEO

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc. [eDir]

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc.

    Professional Experience 57 Years / 11 Month Lawrence K. Nordell has 57 Years and 11 Month professional experience

    Discussions 2608 Lawrence K. Nordell acceded to 2608 discussions, Articles 0 Lawrence K. Nordell wrote 0 articles, Publications 0 Lawrence K. Nordell Nordell released 0 publications

    Searching nothing specified

    Know-How Design (1521) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 1521 times, Pipe Conveyor (238) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 238 times, Chutes (119) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 119 times

    ST-10000 N/mm Belt Design - Part II

    Sr. Rosenthal,

    Part II: ST-10000 N/mm Belt Design

    Thank you for your response. I would like to add a further note on the feasibility of a ST-10000 n/mm belt design after making a brief analysis.

    Assuming the cable could be made to the strength of 200 kN and the cable diameter did not exceed 14 mm. Then 90 cables would be required at a pitch of 19.83mm for a 1829mm (72 inch) belt width. A six (6) step spl;ice would have the necessary gap of 3 mm and the gap to cable diameter of 0.215:1. All feasible.

    However, there are only a few belt presses world-wide that can construct the belt with a 14mm cable. I do not think there are any presses that can do 15 mm cable diameter. I do not know if a 200 kN breaking strength can be made in 14 mm. It will probably take a special high carbon steel.

    The normal strength for 14 mm is in the range of 175 kN. At this 175 kN strength, even a 7 step splice does not provide enough rubber gap in the splice. In any case, you are hitting many limits - wire rope mfg., belt mfg press design, testing of splice integrity, field vulcanizer; etc.

    To date, we have tested a 5-step splice design at ST-8900 N/mm to a 50% endurance efficiency. the splice was 7 m long. Getting the last 1100 N/mm is a big step.

    The splice step lengths, for the ST-10000 would need to be on the order of 1700 mm/step for close to a 11 meter overall splice. The only test facility in the world that can handle such a belt is at the Goodyear factory with its 12m pulley pitch. The pulley diameter for the test would need to be over 2m to keep the pulley bending stresses from having a strong influence on the fatigue rating.

    The pulley diameter would need to exceed 2.5m in operation.


    Wishing you success in your ST-10000 N/mm quest.

    Lawrence Nordell
    President
    Conveyor Dynamics, Inc.

  6. #6
    J Spreadborough - Maunsell, Australia Guest

    Length/Lift Limits for ST10000

    Sr Rosenthal,

    I would like to suggest that an alternative approach to the question regarding this potential application for an ST10000 belt lies in considering alternatives to the conventional approach.

    The proposed application is:

    L = 3615 m, Im = 6510 t/h, B = 1.8 m, v = 4.1 m/s.

    For H=450m, this would require ST10000 and (2 x Pri + 2 x Sec) @3000 kW each.

    An alternative is:

    L = 2 x 1805.5 m, H = 2 x 225m, Im=6510 t/h, B=1.8 m, v=4.1 m/s.

    This would require ST4500 and head end + mid flight drive stations - 2 x (2 x Pri + 2 x Sec) @1500 kW each. The belt and pulleys are reduced to more conventional dimensions.

    Mid flight drive stations (tripper drives) are used at around this scale for underground coal applications.


    Regards

    John Spreadborough
    Hatch - Australia
    Ph 61 7 3834 7775
    Fax 61 7 3832 3042
    Email JSpreadborough@Hatch.com.au

  7. #7
    Lawrence K. Nordell

    Lawrence K. Nordell

    President and CEO

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc. [eDir]

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc.

    Professional Experience 57 Years / 11 Month Lawrence K. Nordell has 57 Years and 11 Month professional experience

    Discussions 2608 Lawrence K. Nordell acceded to 2608 discussions, Articles 0 Lawrence K. Nordell wrote 0 articles, Publications 0 Lawrence K. Nordell Nordell released 0 publications

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    Know-How Design (1521) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 1521 times, Pipe Conveyor (238) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 238 times, Chutes (119) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 119 times

    `2w1e

  8. #8
    Lawrence K. Nordell

    Lawrence K. Nordell

    President and CEO

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc. [eDir]

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc.

    Professional Experience 57 Years / 11 Month Lawrence K. Nordell has 57 Years and 11 Month professional experience

    Discussions 2608 Lawrence K. Nordell acceded to 2608 discussions, Articles 0 Lawrence K. Nordell wrote 0 articles, Publications 0 Lawrence K. Nordell Nordell released 0 publications

    Searching nothing specified

    Know-How Design (1521) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 1521 times, Pipe Conveyor (238) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 238 times, Chutes (119) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 119 times

    Response to John Spreadborough

    Dear John,

    Subject: Intermediate Drive Station - Hard Rock Tunnel Application

    You bring up a valuable point that should be debated for the general good. Resolution is not the short excercise we practice in this forum. For my part, I appologize, in advance, if I seem to come down strongly on one side of this debate. My wish is to incite the collective.

    Speaking for Sr. Rosenthal, he is refering to an underground hard rock slope belt installation. This is quiet different from coal. The operators go to great expense to avoid transfer stations. The risk to the ~500 million dollar installation is very significant. Belt rip or damage, from tramp metal and slabby rock, is to frequent to double the investment risk.

    The transfer will be significantly larger for primary crushed hard rock than for coal. It will require a greater excavation chamber, larger maintenance access and maintenance equipment handling systems.

    If the conveyor must be split into two sections, there are other added costs. The steel cord belt takeup is more difficult when placed underground. Belt reel handling and its splice table is expensive plus it is more than doubled the cost of the single head drive.

    The drive station and pulley handling will be significant in size and expense when buried underground. Electrical and istrumentation routing and housing for MCC/ Instrumentation/Control, and HVACC are more difficult to accomodate and are significantly more expensive place underground. The two conveyors need to be coordinated and collectively controlled from a central control room place at one end of the system. Access to tranfer chute and its liners, dust and noise control, large equipment handling and tunnel excavation clearances will all drive up costs.

    The common number used to measure risk is the lost profit due to downtime. This is often tariffed at +/- $50,000 / hr. or $ 1 million per day. The added second drive station will cut in halve the systems availability from 1% to 2% in round numbers. This penalty cost should be added to the production cost.

    Maintenance cost (labor, et al) will be more with two drive systems, and with the underground placement.

    Your idea of a two pulley drive will require many more pulleys with dirty side contact that may unstablize the load sharing due to the potential of clay type buildup on the pulley surfaces near the drives. Here you fight for space that is abundant above ground.

    I would be willing to bet the belt savings will disappear when all capital cost are weighed. The far more compelling expense is the risk to investment. I estimate the additional transfer station and its associated costs will be at or above 2 million dollars. The two drive station, with belt and ancillary savings, will be at or below 1.6 million dollars. This excludes any risk penalty costs of the second transfer.

    Aside from these comments, anticipating the ST-10,000 N/mm belt can be successfully built, its cost, availability and certification of performance must be put to the manufacturers.

    I am sure others can add more insite and valuable comments to further the common interest of the question.

    Lawrence Nordell
    President
    Conveyor Dynamics, Inc.
    1111 West Holly St.
    Bellingham, Washington 98225
    USA
    ph: 360-671-2200
    fx: 360-671-8450
    email: nordell@conveyor-dynamics.com

  9. #9
    Lawrence K. Nordell

    Lawrence K. Nordell

    President and CEO

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc. [eDir]

    Conveyor Dynamics Inc.

    Professional Experience 57 Years / 11 Month Lawrence K. Nordell has 57 Years and 11 Month professional experience

    Discussions 2608 Lawrence K. Nordell acceded to 2608 discussions, Articles 0 Lawrence K. Nordell wrote 0 articles, Publications 0 Lawrence K. Nordell Nordell released 0 publications

    Searching nothing specified

    Know-How Design (1521) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 1521 times, Pipe Conveyor (238) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 238 times, Chutes (119) Lawrence K. Nordell used this tag 119 times

    Two Drive Stations vs One - Part II

    John; Sr. Rosenthal,

    RE: Three Missing Memories


    Sorry for the lapse in memory.

    1. An important factor in the above equation, not previously stated, is belt wear. Two transfer stations will double the rate of wear. With a so-so chute design, this might lead to an early belt replacement thereby loosing any advantage of cutting the strength by about two. Some how you pay more for two. I also don't quite understand how you cut the belt in two and get less than half strength. I would intuit the opposite.

    2. Another implication which I should have completed. With a loss of 1% availability you loose 1% of your productivity or you increase the make up rate. Given you loose 1% productivity with two drive stations then I claim you loose !% of say 5600 hours per year or 56 hours. At, $50000/hr this is $2.8 million. Argue along the curve, it still is going to amount to a big number. Too many losses and too few benefits make an imbalance favoring one belt to two.

    3. We cut the length of a conveyor when the spares costs outways the risk cost of failure. This may be in the neighborhood of 25 km.

    Viva Vino Tinto

    Lawrence Nordell
    Conveyor Dynamics, Inc.

  10. #10
    J Spreadborough - Maunsell, Australia Guest

    Length/Lift Limits for ST10000

    Lawrence, thanks for your very comprehensive replies.

    You have raised some very compelling reasons for implementing this application (or any application) as a single flight. No argument.

    Please note that:

    the transfer would be 'in-line', ie minimum wear and risk of damage

    the belt would be a single length with a single take-up and belt reeling/splicing facilities at the head end

    all drives would be 'clean side'

    I have raised an alternative approach which has been proven in service. There are other alternatives and variations on the theme.

    I have no doubt that it is possible to design and develop higher strength belt and splice constructions. There appears to be a limit in the manufacturers current capability associated with the design of the current manufacturing equipment being limited to 14 mm cords. There are also diminishing returns available from increasing the strength of belts and splices. Such increases will not return proportional increases in the length/lift limits.

    Regards

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